Two Excursions In One Day?

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:%kDYc.4758$JT3.4313@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> "Rosalie B." wrote
>
> > >You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish
that
> > >are fed to the dolphins. They work for them.
>
> > Well I think he expressed himself poorly and ditto for you. I could
> > interpret what you wrote (They work for them) as meaning that the fish
> > were the bosses of the dolphins, rather than that the fish were a
> > reward for the dolphin performing tricks or whatever which I suppose
> > is what you meant.
>
> You could interpret it that way. That would be wrong too. We know what
you
> thought. You misread, which is all I said. That you misread has now been
> confirmed. No big deal.
>
> Lee
>
>

I made the same mistake.

"Chris Guynn" <chris.guynn@sbcglobal.N.O.S.P.A.M.net> wrote in message
news:3bLYc.14963$WK3.4025@newssvr22.news.prodigy.c om...

> I made the same mistake.

Not something to be proud of. But it certainly explains your position on a
lot of issues.

Rosalie B. <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact
:some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very
:irritating.

Most of them live in Florida I think.

Dan Bracuk
If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure.
The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/


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Greg Mossman wrote:

> "Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
> news:cgu1kp$raf@library2.airnews.net...
>
>
>>Of course you don't. Exploitation of live animals = abuse. How dare
>>you assume to actually know what another living thing thinks. How
>>fxxking arrogant is that?
>
>
> I always assume what other people think. Why can't I do this with dolphins?

Because you're not qualified to do either.

>
>
>>Yes, they do, they jump all over the place in the wild. Experts far
>>smarter than you or I have been trying to understand why they do certain
>>things, so I'll defer to their as yet unresolved position.
>
>
> I doubt they're far smarter than me. Smarter than you and the dolphins,
> perhaps.

There's a lot of people smarter than you, Greg - just ask any dolphin.

>
>
>>I'm fairly certain they would've walked a mile a minute of someone had
>>bothered to respect them enough to offer them the education to subsist
>>on their own. Back then, a smart slave was often found under a head
>>stone or decorating a tree limb somewhere.
>
>
> So you think we should teach dolphins how to find and eat fish?

I think we should leave the dolphins the hell alone. They've survived
for thousands of years before assholes like us showed up.

>
>
>>Your're welcome to pity me if you want Greg, but I would recommend
>>caution when it comes to understanding the behaviour patterns of our
>>non-human friends - they don't always make decisions based of what you
>>or I would consider the obvious course of our reason. I also have
>>attended "rescued animal" venues, but there was no mandatory cost for
>>access because it wasn't intended to be entertainment.
>
>
> Sure they do. Like all decisions, dolphin or human, it all comes down to
> food or sex. Basic survival instinct.

Fine, you deal with yours, I'll deal with mine, Lee will deal with his,
and the dolphins will deal with theirs. Nobody needs the help of another.

>
>
>>And those nets may as well have been a brick wall around a crematorium,
>>yet like your mental patients, have been conditioned to prefer, even
>>accept the lesser of at least one evil. Please Greg, I'm not one to
>>adopt the public persona that's handed me by some actor playing the role
>>of Good Person. I decide where my money goes, not the stage director.
>
>
> Speaking of 'good person', how is confining the dolphins any different than
> proselytizing and converting frail-minded human beings to religion? And if
> you have nothing against religion, how can you be bothered by dolphin
> experiences?

How about we confine you, not because you've done anything really bad,
but I think you'd make a good "pet" to a number of fine people in that
same "position". If you don't like this idea of mine, then your point
is worse than worthless. If you do like my idea, I recommend you play
nice and pucker up.

--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur

chilly wrote:

> "Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
> news:cgthkg$86m@library2.airnews.net...
>
>>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that
>>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out
>>of a fishing nets to save their own lives, let alone jump over a simple
>>fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or
>>maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish.
>>They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse.
>>When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes
>>exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable.
>
>
> I don't necessarily disagree with you Jer. However, based only upon what I
> was told, when I swam with the dolphins in Cuba, they told me that there
> were no nets/barriers hampering their departure. I was told that the
> dolphins could leave the cove at any time they chose and that they chose to
> remain.

Most dolphin encounter venues use a subsurface fishing net for
containment. All it needs to do is stay just below the surface out of
human sight, but it's not out of dolphin sight. The line of floats that
mark off the "swim" area are informing more than the humans of where the
limits are, and most humans don't get out that far anyway. I do, and
learn most venue hawkers are liars about that no confinement crap. So,
they're thieves and liars. And people still wonder why I don't support
this shit.

[....]



--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur

"Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote in message
news:413381a7$0$104$6c56adcd@news.qnet.com...
> "Chris Guynn" <chris.guynn@sbcglobal.N.O.S.P.A.M.net> wrote in message
> news:3bLYc.14963$WK3.4025@newssvr22.news.prodigy.c om...
>
> > I made the same mistake.
>
> Not something to be proud of. But it certainly explains your position on
a
> lot of issues.
>

I'm not terribly proud of it, I'm just willing to admit my mistakes. It
helps me to learn from them.

"Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote:

>"Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
>news:ch1tcd$cqm@library2.airnews.net...
>
>> Most dolphin encounter venues use a subsurface fishing net for
>> containment. All it needs to do is stay just below the surface out of
>> human sight, but it's not out of dolphin sight. The line of floats that
>> mark off the "swim" area are informing more than the humans of where the
>> limits are, and most humans don't get out that far anyway. I do, and
>> learn most venue hawkers are liars about that no confinement crap. So,
>> they're thieves and liars. And people still wonder why I don't support
>> this shit.
>
>And most public schools use simple chain-link fences for confinement as well
>as the threat of detention, yet I managed to ditch class occasionally even
>though climbing a chain link fence is much more difficult than a dolphin
>jumping over a "subsurface fishing net". Dolphins at SeaWorld can jump
>through hoops suspended far out of the water. Give me a break. It's not
>confinement any more than I'm confined in my own house because I refuse to
>turn the doorknob.
>

I don't know about dolphins specifically, but I would not make the
assumption that because an animal easily could do something and does
it in other venues that it means that the knowledge/experience would
transfer.

Right at the moment I can only think of 2 examples and they are both
to do with horses. My SIL had a race horse - huge creature of 17h and
mean. And the pasture fence fell down or was taken down. All the
ponies in the corral with him stepped over the railing that was lying
on the ground and escaped. He did not. It certainly wasn't because
he couldn't - the pole was lying on the ground. But he didn't know he
could so he didn't - even though he saw the others do it.

My daughters had a pony who was pastured at a big farm. All of the
horses and ponies at the farm could jump. The fences were somewhat
ramshackle at this place, and the landlady said she saw one of my
ponies lead all the rest of them group over one of the fences that was
a bit lower than the rest onto her front lawn. She wasn't best
pleased.

None of these animals apparently would have thought of jumping the
fences by themselves, but my daughter had been (successfully) teaching
her pony to free jump. That is - she'd run around in the pasture with
jumps in it and he would canter or trot next to her shoulder (like a
dog heeling on a lead), and when she came to a jump, she'd go around
it, but say 'hup' and he'd jump and then come back to her shoulder.
(BTW free jumping is sometimes done with stallions that haven't been
backed or broken to ride, but that isn't the way they do it. They
usually have a restricted pen or small arena to do it in.)

If you want to keep deer out of your garden, they will easily jump
almost any fence that you can construct unless you angle the fence in.
They hesitate to jump a width like that because they don't want to get
entangled in the fence and apparently aren't able to judge the width.

So it may be that jumping through a hoop above the water provides a
visual reference to the dolphins which enables them to judge a
take-off point, whereas a net under the water doesn't provide such a
landmark for them. After all - aren't they sometimes entrapped by
fish nets? Most of the time it would be possible for them to jump out
of them too.


grandma Rosalie

"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:vpc9j01qq9rc24h1np7r50q7q81gf02t4o@4ax.com...

> Right at the moment I can only think of 2 examples and they are both
> to do with horses. My SIL had a race horse - huge creature of 17h and
> mean. And the pasture fence fell down or was taken down. All the
> ponies in the corral with him stepped over the railing that was lying
> on the ground and escaped. He did not. It certainly wasn't because
> he couldn't - the pole was lying on the ground. But he didn't know he
> could so he didn't - even though he saw the others do it.

OK, so there's the case of the retarded dolphin. But we often involuntary
commit retarded human animals for their own good in this country, so why not
retarded dolphins? Jer wants to teach them how to catch fish on their own.
I say, if they're too dumb to be able to catch their own fish or jump over
an underwater net, then they badly need our help.

> None of these animals apparently would have thought of jumping the
> fences by themselves, but my daughter had been (successfully) teaching
> her pony to free jump. That is - she'd run around in the pasture with
> jumps in it and he would canter or trot next to her shoulder (like a
> dog heeling on a lead), and when she came to a jump, she'd go around
> it, but say 'hup' and he'd jump and then come back to her shoulder.
> (BTW free jumping is sometimes done with stallions that haven't been
> backed or broken to ride, but that isn't the way they do it. They
> usually have a restricted pen or small arena to do it in.)

Yep, and the dolphins in the dolphin experiences are trained to do "tricks"
like leaping out of the water on command. Don't tell me that, with their
intelligence far superior to horses', that they couldn't jump over an
underwater net on their own.

> If you want to keep deer out of your garden, they will easily jump
> almost any fence that you can construct unless you angle the fence in.
> They hesitate to jump a width like that because they don't want to get
> entangled in the fence and apparently aren't able to judge the width.

The nets that I've seen in a dolphin experience were straight down. The
dolphin wouldn't even have to jump. It could slide over it.

> So it may be that jumping through a hoop above the water provides a
> visual reference to the dolphins which enables them to judge a
> take-off point, whereas a net under the water doesn't provide such a
> landmark for them. After all - aren't they sometimes entrapped by
> fish nets? Most of the time it would be possible for them to jump out
> of them too.

See the above comment. They are trapped in fish nets because they are
surrounded by lots of heavy fish. Those that actually have the means to
jump out and don't are obviously suicidal or they're the retarded dolphins
that we're trying to save by locking them up.

"Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote:

>"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:vpc9j01qq9rc24h1np7r50q7q81gf02t4o@4ax.com.. .
>
>> Right at the moment I can only think of 2 examples and they are both
>> to do with horses. My SIL had a race horse - huge creature of 17h and
>> mean. And the pasture fence fell down or was taken down. All the
>> ponies in the corral with him stepped over the railing that was lying
>> on the ground and escaped. He did not. It certainly wasn't because
>> he couldn't - the pole was lying on the ground. But he didn't know he
>> could so he didn't - even though he saw the others do it.
>
>OK, so there's the case of the retarded dolphin. But we often involuntary

No it is NOT a retarded dolphin. It is just that you do not know how
they perceive the world.

With horses, when they approach a jump because their eyes are on the
side of their heads (so they can see predators behind them which is
why sometimes they wear blinkers so they won't get spooked by the
carriage that they are pulling) which means that when they are at a
take-off point for the jump they can no longer see the jump because
their nose is in the way. It's a wonder any horse ever learned to
jump anything.

Maybe dolphin's eyes are adapted to see in the water and their vision
out of the water is blurred. Maybe the net doesn't show up well on
their sonar. Whatever - you can't make the assumption that they don't
jump out because they are retarded.

>commit retarded human animals for their own good in this country, so why not
>retarded dolphins? Jer wants to teach them how to catch fish on their own.
>I say, if they're too dumb to be able to catch their own fish or jump over
>an underwater net, then they badly need our help.
>
>> None of these animals apparently would have thought of jumping the
>> fences by themselves, but my daughter had been (successfully) teaching
>> her pony to free jump. That is - she'd run around in the pasture with
>> jumps in it and he would canter or trot next to her shoulder (like a
>> dog heeling on a lead), and when she came to a jump, she'd go around
>> it, but say 'hup' and he'd jump and then come back to her shoulder.
>> (BTW free jumping is sometimes done with stallions that haven't been
>> backed or broken to ride, but that isn't the way they do it. They
>> usually have a restricted pen or small arena to do it in.)
>
>Yep, and the dolphins in the dolphin experiences are trained to do "tricks"
>like leaping out of the water on command. Don't tell me that, with their
>intelligence far superior to horses', that they couldn't jump over an
>underwater net on their own.
>
>> If you want to keep deer out of your garden, they will easily jump
>> almost any fence that you can construct unless you angle the fence in.
>> They hesitate to jump a width like that because they don't want to get
>> entangled in the fence and apparently aren't able to judge the width.
>
>The nets that I've seen in a dolphin experience were straight down. The
>dolphin wouldn't even have to jump. It could slide over it.
>
>> So it may be that jumping through a hoop above the water provides a
>> visual reference to the dolphins which enables them to judge a
>> take-off point, whereas a net under the water doesn't provide such a
>> landmark for them. After all - aren't they sometimes entrapped by
>> fish nets? Most of the time it would be possible for them to jump out
>> of them too.
>
>See the above comment. They are trapped in fish nets because they are
>surrounded by lots of heavy fish. Those that actually have the means to
>jump out and don't are obviously suicidal or they're the retarded dolphins
>that we're trying to save by locking them up.
>

grandma Rosalie

"Jer" wrote

> Okay, if you want to put it that way, then maybe we both are. But my
> method causes no harm. It's never okay to fuck with something that
> doesn't belong to you. The wildlife doesn't belong to anyone, so don't
> fuck with it.

Perhaps his doesn't either. BTW, I'm not positive, but I don't think Greg
was planning on Fucking any dolphin.

> > I was
> > even more clear when I mentioned the dolphins my wife did an encounter
with
> > are periodically released into the wild only to return for more.
>
> Gee, Pavlov's dog did the same thing.

Funny, I don't recall that Pavlov released his dogs. Can you provide a
cite?

Lee