which diver are you ?

Alan Street wrote:

> Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an
> OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work.

How closely do you suppose a government bureaucracy checks on claims of meeting the
requirements? I once met a captain who made a reference to counting time spent as a
dealer on a cruise ship towards sea time. Other than the sea time requirements, there
are outfits that claim to get you a captains license in only 2 more weekends than a
PADI OW course.

--
Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

"Finn" wrote

> Please stay away from the keys at all costs.....thank you for not coming
> there !

The state of Florida has a program in effect to remove all non native plants
and animals, creating an environment friendly to native organisms. Perhaps
we should do the same with people.

Lee

Cap, did I hear the words FREE DIVE? I'm in...
Gat'r

"captkeywest" <captkeywest@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120478306.318493.34830@g49g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> from a local dive column.........
>
> Divers must work hard to protect reef
>
> DIVERSIONS ( credit to Capt. Scott F.)
>
> Diver A walks into a dive shop on a beautiful tropical island and asks
> to sign up for the afternoon trip to the local reef.
>
> The young instructor behind the counter checks Diver A's certification
> card and notes that he's been certified for a number of years.
>
> In addition, the instructor notices that Diver A has taken several
> additional courses beyond open water.
>
> Releases are signed and everything goes well until Diver A is informed
> that he will be joining several other first-time visitors to the island
> on a checkout dive.
>
>
> Diver A politely informs the young instructor that he is already
> certified and does not need a checkout dive.
>
> The young instructor, also polite but firm, explains to Diver A that to
> protect the coral reef of the beautiful tropical island, all divers
> must first exhibit comfort in the water and proper buoyancy control
> before being allowed to dive.
>
> Diver A is not at all happy. He thinks that a certification card is
> proof enough that he can dive.
>
>
>
>
> He is not amused that this young instructor wants to see him perform a
> few skills - skills that he has been doing long before this young
> instructor ever started teaching.
>
> Diver B walks into the same shop on the same beautiful tropical island
> and also wants to sign up for a dive to the local reef.
>
> The young instructor checks his certification as well and notes that
> this diver also has quite a bit of experience and additional training.
>
>
>
>
> When informed about the policy of all dive operations on the beautiful
> tropical island on protecting the coral reef, Diver B simply nods and
> agrees to "jump through the hoops" to be allowed to dive on the famed
> reefs.
>
> Diver B looks forward to the chance to showcase his mask clearing
> skills and buoyancy control.
>
> Diver B also understands that by requiring a checkout dive before
> allowing divers to explore the reefs of the beautiful tropical island,
> the dive operators are ensuring that only careful, competent divers
> enter the water.
>
>
>
>
> Others are offered additional training and help to ensure that the
> coral reefs remain in a healthy pristine state.
>
> Diver B knows that by protecting the coral reefs, the beautiful
> tropical island is creating a product that divers the world over will
> seek to visit and explore.
>
> So which diver are you?
>
>
>
>
> Would you get angry and upset if an operator asked you to perform a few
> simple skills to showcase your proficiency?
>
> Or would you understand that the operator was simply trying to help
> preserve the delicate and precious coral reef environment?
>
> Would you be happy to "show off" a little and show the instructor the
> skills you have been working on over the years?
>
> And would your answers change if that beautiful tropical island was
> right here in the Florida Keys?
>
> Would you complain if you had to prove your proficiency before being
> allowed to dive here?
>
> Is our beautiful tropical island not as good as theirs?
>
> Best fishes!
>

"Dan Bracuk" <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:3qbmc1t8kg4r0hsccbbbnaplar5hrbt37n@4ax.com...
> Jim Wyatt <Jim@nospam-cavediveflorida.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
> :You would pass -- no problems. What I have seen in the keys are the
> divers
> :who damage the reef due to poor or no buoyancy control. The folks in the
> :keys are simply trying to save the reefs and are battling divers whose
> :skills have deteriorated or never really existed.
>
> They can always be upfront about the testing requirement and make the
> information available before the payment is made. Announcing it
> afterwards is disreputable, no matter how noble the reason.
>
> Dan Bracuk

I agree with Dan. Futhermore, is should be at the operators cost, and done
the same day of a diving vacation, prior to the "real diving", and should
not take longer than fifteen minutes in the water. Otherwise, a days
expense on a dive vacation to establish skill level is a wasted day.
Room, meals, and dive charges are rather steep to establish proficiency.

On he other hand, what do they do with someone that is deemed incompetent?
I'm sure it happens way to often by the stories I've heard. Demotion to a
refresher course, again at great expense to the diver, but relieving the
liability to the reef and operator? Maybe, instead of, "Have you had a dive
in the last six months?", have a letter of recommendation from a certified
DM of the divers skills (could be forged)? Wouldn't that last one
eliminate a bunch of people with less than proficient skills?

I haven't done a trip report yet, but last month at Stuart Cove in Nassau,
doing a two tank dive off a cruise ship, I run into a slight problem after
getting in the water. Set up the gear; all worked fine; get into the water
only to find my BC to power inflator hose broken in half (wonder how that
happened?). Tell the DM as he's getting in, and he says " If you're
experienced enough you can continue your dive or stay on the boat" (what
happens here stays here). This was after the guy bragged about his perfect
safety record, and almost lacerated my sons (he's skinny) liver/pancreas by
pulling his weight belt way to tight after he couldn't get their weight belt
buckle to stay closed. Since I haven't actively used my BC in ten years,
and the wife and kids were already on the bottom at fifty feet, I continued
my dive, although it felt a little funny having to forget my BC only held my
tank on my back. Turns out I needed the weight of the water in the BC to
get nutral anyway...hell of a way to find out. Second dive was the dive
from hell into a 3 knot current led by the same DM. Think of a Boynton
drift dive into the current and you get the picture. We came back to the
boat in a brown cloud. I really thought it was sewage at first, but turned
out to be millions of thimble jellyfish...spawing. I am now thoroughly
convinced of the connection to so called "sea lice" from the welts we had
the next day.

Then later in the month we dove with Captain Morgan out of Banana Bay in
Marathon. It helps if they know you. We dove with Captain Morgan last year
after a referral from Captain Banny Thorne whom had retired from the
business. When I asked last year if he wanted a deposit, he said no since
we were some of "Banny's people"....and he didn't even know us then (there's
that recommendation thing).

We did two days of diving, with the conditions rather suboptimal for the
keys, but it was a whole lot better than the last week to current
conditions. Captain Morgan runs a six pack (okay, for the uninitiated, he
only takes six people) and the first day was like a private charter since we
were the only four on the boat. The first day we had two five foot wingspan
Eagle Rays came by us in twenty feet of water, and the Barge still has
thousands of fish under its structure, wonderful for photography with no one
else to get in the way or scare stuff off.

Lee; the conjuntion of Saturn, Venus, and Mercury was absolutely clear as a
bell (no pun intended)
the night of June 25th over the Gulf of Mexico? or is it still Florida Bay
that far south. Whatever. No haze or clouds, and was crystal clear. Out
of all of the things I've seen, I had never seen Murcury because of its low
appearance in the sky and haze, trees, clouds etc. We could even see Fat
Albert perfectly.

George

George Price wrote:

> On he other hand, what do they do with someone that is deemed incompetent?


They return their credit card and provide directions to the nearest
t-shirt shop.


The t-shirt shopper I met in Coz a few years ago was better suited for a
sidewalk than the ocean. It's freaking August, wearing a colored wrist
band, 7m w/hood and biggo bowie knife lashed to an upper leg. Severely
overweighted and flapping arms, bicycling legs, he drops like a stone
into a cloud of sand at 50'. Drifting toward the reef (OMG) he found
his "air button" (his words), rockets back to the surface arms still
flapping away. (I'm think this bird has migrated a little too far south)
Somehow, his biggo bowie knife detached from his leg and fell to the
bottom. While stuffing his knife under my BC, his weight belt pounded
the sand just ahead of me and I'm wondering what's next as I watched him
clumber back in the boat above. Proficiency? Not even.



[....]


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

"Jer" wrote

> The t-shirt shopper I met in Coz a few years ago was better suited for a
> sidewalk than the ocean. It's freaking August, wearing a colored wrist
> band, 7m w/hood and biggo bowie knife lashed to an upper leg. Severely
> overweighted and flapping arms, bicycling legs, he drops like a stone into
> a cloud of sand at 50'. Drifting toward the reef (OMG) he found his "air
> button" (his words), rockets back to the surface arms still flapping away.
> (I'm think this bird has migrated a little too far south) Somehow, his
> biggo bowie knife detached from his leg and fell to the bottom. While
> stuffing his knife under my BC, his weight belt pounded the sand just
> ahead of me and I'm wondering what's next as I watched him clumber back in
> the boat above. Proficiency? Not even.

Somebody ought to find out who his instructor and certification agency was
and sue them for mental anguish.

The fact is, a certification card is supposed to certify competence. Giving
it to somebody who isn't, is, at best, fraud. At worst, homicide. An
agency that requires a check out dive for those certified by their
affiliated agency is telling everybody not only that their agency is
certifying those that are not competent, but also that everybody in their
affiliated agency knows it.

I find it hard to believe any of us would even consider a "check out dive"
as a reasonable norm.

Lee

Lee Bell wrote:
> "Jer" wrote
>
>
>>The t-shirt shopper I met in Coz a few years ago was better suited for a
>>sidewalk than the ocean. It's freaking August, wearing a colored wrist
>>band, 7m w/hood and biggo bowie knife lashed to an upper leg. Severely
>>overweighted and flapping arms, bicycling legs, he drops like a stone into
>>a cloud of sand at 50'. Drifting toward the reef (OMG) he found his "air
>>button" (his words), rockets back to the surface arms still flapping away.
>>(I'm think this bird has migrated a little too far south) Somehow, his
>>biggo bowie knife detached from his leg and fell to the bottom. While
>>stuffing his knife under my BC, his weight belt pounded the sand just
>>ahead of me and I'm wondering what's next as I watched him clumber back in
>>the boat above. Proficiency? Not even.
>
>
> Somebody ought to find out who his instructor and certification agency was
> and sue them for mental anguish.
>
> The fact is, a certification card is supposed to certify competence. Giving
> it to somebody who isn't, is, at best, fraud. At worst, homicide. An
> agency that requires a check out dive for those certified by their
> affiliated agency is telling everybody not only that their agency is
> certifying those that are not competent, but also that everybody in their
> affiliated agency knows it.
>
> I find it hard to believe any of us would even consider a "check out dive"
> as a reasonable norm.
>
> Lee
>
>


Yup. Although this particular event wasn't considered a check-out dive,
it certainly served as one - which he flunked miserably - and
thankfully. IIRC, he was a married pod person from San Antonio, had
presented a PADI OW card, but I don't know if it was provided through a
dive shop, the YMCA, an individual instructor, his mother, or F troop.
Had he presented an AOW card, we would've been up on Barracuda instead
of Santa Rosa Shallows, and we would be consoling his non-diving wife
and retrieving his gear and shredded body remnants from a patch of
Gulfstream flotsam. For what it's worth, this kiddo wasn't qualified to
bathe with water wings let alone suck air through a reg. I don't even
want to imagine him in a cenote.

IMO, this certainly wasn't any normal event, but an aberration among
hundreds over a span of many years of my own experiences, so I do not
offer this as any sort of reason for requiring check-out dives - only
that sometimes things have a way of shaking out without disastrous
consequences, given the opportunity to do so. It was interesting to
spot him that evening exiting C&Cs with what presumably was his wife,
fetching as she was, I don't have her number because he ain't dead yet.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

In article <cKKze.17839$XB2.5071556@twister.nyc.rr.com>, Steve
<SPAMTRAPglawackus@hvc.rr.com> wrote:

€ Alan Street wrote:
€
€ > Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an
€ > OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work.
€
€ How closely do you suppose a government bureaucracy checks on claims of
€ meeting the
€ requirements? I once met a captain who made a reference to counting time
€ spent as a
€ dealer on a cruise ship towards sea time. Other than the sea time
€ requirements, there
€ are outfits that claim to get you a captains license in only 2 more weekends
€ than a
€ PADI OW course.

Yeah, we have those out here too. But at least the test is a
standardized test, and wrong answers are counted as wrong. I don't know
the numbers, but I do believe the failure rate for captians tests,
especially those above six-pac, is higher than the wash-out rate for
PADI students.

"captkeywest" <captkeywest@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1120478306.318493.34830@g49g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> from a local dive column.........
>
From experience:
To be asked to do a checkup dive by a instructor, that could have been
trained by a instructor that could have been trained by a instructor that
could have been trained by me. Wasn't able to swim when I became a dive
instructor. Who has less logged dives made in his life then I have trained
open water divers.
Who feels the need to prove himself because he is about the lowest certified
diver on a lifeaboard. After the checkup dive kiks all the rules, trying to
impress by making 80 plus meter dives solo and on air, then says these rules
only apply to clients not to staff. To find him then surprised to be fired,
after a complain made by me and others on board on his (diving) behavior.
Just a week off liveaboard in the south RedSea near the border of Sudan,
about at least a day away from the nearest recompressionchamber.

Checkup dives are fine, but keep it in proporsion to what you find in front
off you.

Marc

"Alan Street" wrote

> Yeah, we have those out here too. But at least the test is a
> standardized test, and wrong answers are counted as wrong. I don't know
> the numbers, but I do believe the failure rate for captians tests,
> especially those above six-pac, is higher than the wash-out rate for
> PADI students.

Hell, one would meet that criteria.

Lee