which diver are you?, part two

chilly wrote:

> Dude! A dolphin crapped on you??

Back in 2000 when "Spot" the wild dolphin was hanging out by Cayman Brac we snorkeled
with him 3 times and did two dives during which he kept us company. He din't quite
crap onme, but it was close.

He also pointed at me with a medial appendage that wasn't on his back.


--
Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Steve wrote:
> chilly wrote:
>
> > Dude! A dolphin crapped on you??
>
> Back in 2000 when "Spot" the wild dolphin was hanging out by Cayman Brac we snorkeled
> with him 3 times and did two dives during which he kept us company. He din't quite
> crap onme, but it was close.

Spot of Brac was blind in one eye and an outcast by other dolphins.

The "wild" dolphin that used to play once a week with divers of the
Dancer liveaboard in Belize, was also a social outcast by other
dolphins.

The REALLY "wild" (in their natural habitat) dolphins (in North Bahamas
say) are too smart and too bored to play with the clumsy human divers.


That's why those who exploit the cluelessness of tourists and pod
people
and the helplessness of dolphins in captivity market the captive
dolphins.

Whether they crap on you literally is beside the point. You've been
cropped on figuratively, by BOTH human AND dolphins when you pay to
pet them.

-- Bob.

Steve <SPAMTRAPglawackus@hvc.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:He also pointed at me with a medial appendage that wasn't on his back.

Pectoral fin?

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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my comments below Ross's

------------------------------------------------------

Ross wrote:

For an agency to stand behind their cards, as if they truly represent
accomplishment in scuba proficiency and knowledge, to the point where a
shop or other operator could look at a card and ensure to themselves
that the person was competent, they would have to:

1) have expiration dates on cards
and
2) test divers annually before renewing the card for another year.


--------------------------------------------------------


One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which
Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being
discussed also had the context of time lapsed since last dive
associated with the need for a checkout dive. I found interesting that
different certifying agencies may have different lengths of time
associated with the recommendation of a checkout dive. So if a checkout
program becomes reality I would expect it to be associated with each
individuals certifying agencies recommendations....

A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit!

It would not surprise me if Scott left that part out intentionally
figuring any controversy would likely draw attention to the need for
proper buoyancy control in the fragile coral reef environment and was
just exploiting that controversy to try and protect the natural
resources divers are trying to visit in the Keys!

"captkeywest" <captkeywest@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121248051.460402.89220@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
> One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which
> Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being
> discussed also had the context of time lapsed since last dive
> associated with the need for a checkout dive. I found interesting that
> different certifying agencies may have different lengths of time
> associated with the recommendation of a checkout dive. So if a checkout
> program becomes reality I would expect it to be associated with each
> individuals certifying agencies recommendations....
>
> A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit!
>
> It would not surprise me if Scott left that part out intentionally
> figuring any controversy would likely draw attention to the need for
> proper buoyancy control in the fragile coral reef environment and was
> just exploiting that controversy to try and protect the natural
> resources divers are trying to visit in the Keys!

And so? Do you charge for this checkout dive or don't you?

>

"captkeywest" wrote

> One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which
> Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being
> discussed also had the context of time lapsed since last dive
> associated with the need for a checkout dive. I found interesting that
> different certifying agencies may have different lengths of time
> associated with the recommendation of a checkout dive. So if a checkout
> program becomes reality I would expect it to be associated with each
> individuals certifying agencies recommendations....
>
> A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit!

It would if it were imposed after the fact. I hold cards from three
agencies. Each of them is forever. That was the deal and that was the
contract. It would put a burr in my swimsuit to be told that now, 40 some
years after my first training, I have to be tested to see if I'm safe.

If the operators want to do it right, perhaps they should offer a "tune up"
dive to multi day guests who have not been diving for a while. Package it
with a gear inspection and service program and you might have something that
enough divers would pay for to make it work.

They could even emulate some of the Caribbean resorts by scheduling a first
day of diving in relatively shallow and, perhaps, less environmentally
sensitive areas while they assess the quality of each diver's ability.
This, however, creates a new problem, how to divide the divers for the
remainder of their diving holiday. Not many Keys operators have three boats
available to divide people into advanced, intermediate and novice groups.

Otherwise, anybody that wants a checkout dive for others needs to provide
the time and foot the bill for it. I don't need a shop's assurance that I
can dive safely and I don't want to pay to provide them with the assurance
they want for themselves. Fair is fair. They want the assurance and,
perhaps, the reduced cost of insurance, let them pay what it takes to get
them.

Lee

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:thaBe.9572$aY6.6919@newsread1.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> "captkeywest" wrote
>
>> One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which
>> Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being
>> discussed also had the context of time lapsed since last dive
>> associated with the need for a checkout dive. I found interesting that
>> different certifying agencies may have different lengths of time
>> associated with the recommendation of a checkout dive. So if a checkout
>> program becomes reality I would expect it to be associated with each
>> individuals certifying agencies recommendations....
>>
>> A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit!
>
> It would if it were imposed after the fact. I hold cards from three
> agencies. Each of them is forever. That was the deal and that was the
> contract. It would put a burr in my swimsuit to be told that now, 40 some
> years after my first training, I have to be tested to see if I'm safe.

You are right on target. Nobody who currently holds a card issued without
any condition for retest or recert should required to do it. But, that
doesn't mean any operation or boat can't make it a requirement of *their*
operation that divers do so before being allowed to dive from their boats
(this was the "can of worms" I mentioned in an earlier post).

For example: a dive shop can decide they don't want to take divers who carry
SSA cards, and there is nothing to stop them. Your c-card agreement was with
the agency, not with every dive shop or boat on the face of the planet.
There is no crossover in that sense.

So as I have said before, there are two issues here:
1) a dive shop or boat wants some way to ensure their divers are, in your
words, "competent".

2) and we all agree the agencies aren't issueing cards for competency, but
rather starter knowledge/capability.

Between the two the diver is stuck.

But your idea of a free "tune-up" would certainly serve the diving public
well. And I cannot see that it would cost the diveshop any more money to do
that, than it does to do checkout dives.

"Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his
keyboard resulting in:
:You are right on target. Nobody who currently holds a card issued without
:any condition for retest or recert should required to do it. But, that
:doesn't mean any operation or boat can't make it a requirement of *their*
:operation that divers do so before being allowed to dive from their boats
:(this was the "can of worms" I mentioned in an earlier post).

Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. As long as those
rules are made visible to the diver before money changes hands there
is no problem.

Whether the diver takes the time and effort to read the rules is up to
him.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
> :You are right on target. Nobody who currently holds a card issued without
> :any condition for retest or recert should required to do it. But, that
> :doesn't mean any operation or boat can't make it a requirement of *their*
> :operation that divers do so before being allowed to dive from their boats
> :(this was the "can of worms" I mentioned in an earlier post).
>
> Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. As long as those
> rules are made visible to the diver before money changes hands there
> is no problem.
>
> Whether the diver takes the time and effort to read the rules is up to
> him.
>
> Dan Bracuk
> If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.


I agree. A liveaboard dive op in the Texas gulf doesn't have
competentcy check dives, per se, but the posted rules are...

#1. You're welcome to have an adult beverage after any dive, but that
last dive was your last dive of the day. No exceptions.

#2. After any dive, if you show up at the stern of the boat with less
than 500psi in your tank, that's one. If it happens again, you're
diving is over. No exceptions.

#3. Handle only your own gear.

#4. Test only your own gas.

#5. Don't agree? See ya.

NOTE: In good weather, the nearest chamber is on land eight hours away.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Jer wrote:
> Dan Bracuk wrote:
> >
> > Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. As long as those
> > rules are made visible to the diver before money changes hands there
> > is no problem.
> >
> > Whether the diver takes the time and effort to read the rules is up to
> > him.
> >
> > Dan Bracuk
>
> I agree. A liveaboard dive op in the Texas gulf doesn't have
> competentcy check dives, per se, but the posted rules are...

That's because they've seen Texan trained divers.

I used to meet plenty of the "students" brought by a Texan instructor
on the slow boats (took two hours to get from downtown to Palancar
Reefs in Cozumel), so I had plenty to time to talk to and observe
the "training" and divers.

There was one notable incidence of a "Advanced" certification of
a lady diver, who hanged on the instructors arm during the ENTIRE
dive, came on board with two black eyes (from mask squeeze) --
she obviously didn't know how to clear her mask or equalize it.
She was all smiles because she PASSED! She should NEVER have
been given Open-Water I certification!!

>
> #1. You're welcome to have an adult beverage after any dive, but that
> last dive was your last dive of the day. No exceptions.

Good rule. Never paid any attention because I don't drink. But
have seen many harmless exceptions of one beer at lunch, known
to the crew and captain.

>
> #2. After any dive, if you show up at the stern of the boat with less
> than 500psi in your tank, that's one. If it happens again, you're
> diving is over. No exceptions.

The name of the shop? Fascist Divers?

>
> NOTE: In good weather, the nearest chamber is on land eight hours away.

No reason to be a Fascist sitter for babies. Cocos is 30 hours away
from land -- not accessible to helicopters.

I like the briefing (which puts the RESPONSIBILITY on the divers):
"If you screw up, you ruin the vacation of the OTHERS on the boat".

No minimum psi nonsense, no max depth, no nothing. The very FIRST
dive I did in Cocos, I plunged to below 130 fsw, with DM Jay in sight.

This was my post of that trip report in 1992:

http://tinyurl.com/8zdmv

The only "rule" I recall was to be back to the dinghy within ONE HOUR,
for reasons of being able to schedule THREE dives during the day.

It turned out to be no problem, because most of the divers were short
on air or OOA after 30 minutes or so, and had to wait on the dinghy
for those who lasted close to, or up to, 60 minutes.

-- Bob.