PADI Training vs.. others

Greg Mossman wrote:

>>> we also know that there are relatively few
>>>recreational diving accidents.
>>
>>No, you don't. You know that there are relatively few diving accidents
>>reported and tracked. There's a huge difference.
>
>
> I doubt there's a huge difference.

There may not be a big numerical difference, but I'm guessing Lee was referring to
what we actually know. We know about the relatively few accidents that are reported,
but that doesn't necessarily mean that we know how many accidents there are.


> In countries like the U.S., where
> practically every death gets investigated, I'm pretty sure that DAN's record
> is near complete.

When Rob Svensson died while diving in February 2001 his death was thoroughly
investigated. Please let me know if you find it listed in the DAN reports.

> There may be a few missed cases of DCS or minor
> barotrauma, but any case so mild as to escape attention probably doesn't
> deserve attention

The problem is that many minor incidents are only a little bit of luck away from
being serious incidents. Are thousands of drunk drivers making it home without mishap
a problem, or is DWI only a problem when the driver causes an accident? We can be
reasonably sure that the drunks who made it home weren't reported. I expect most of
the people here will enjoy this article which describes a serious mishap that wasn't
reported to DAN or PADI (or any other agency), and which only ended without a corpse
through extreme good luck and a knowledgeable rescuer:
http://www.stationr.org/rescues/nickajk.htm
I realize that even the minimal training of a PADI weekend-wonder course probably
warned about this particular type of danger; it's just a good example of a close call
that never entered the statistics.



--
Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Greg Mossman wrote:

>>> we also know that there are relatively few
>>>recreational diving accidents.
>>
>>No, you don't. You know that there are relatively few diving accidents
>>reported and tracked. There's a huge difference.
>
>
> I doubt there's a huge difference.

There may not be a big numerical difference, but I'm guessing Lee was referring to
what we actually know. We know about the relatively few accidents that are reported,
but that doesn't necessarily mean that we know how many accidents there are.


> In countries like the U.S., where
> practically every death gets investigated, I'm pretty sure that DAN's record
> is near complete.

When Rob Svensson died while diving in February 2001 his death was thoroughly
investigated. Please let me know if you find it listed in the DAN reports.

> There may be a few missed cases of DCS or minor
> barotrauma, but any case so mild as to escape attention probably doesn't
> deserve attention

The problem is that many minor incidents are only a little bit of luck away from
being serious incidents. Are thousands of drunk drivers making it home without mishap
a problem, or is DWI only a problem when the driver causes an accident? We can be
reasonably sure that the drunks who made it home weren't reported. I expect most of
the people here will enjoy this article which describes a serious mishap that wasn't
reported to DAN or PADI (or any other agency), and which only ended without a corpse
through extreme good luck and a knowledgeable rescuer:
http://www.stationr.org/rescues/nickajk.htm
I realize that even the minimal training of a PADI weekend-wonder course probably
warned about this particular type of danger; it's just a good example of a close call
that never entered the statistics.



--
Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Esa Laitinen wrote:

> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>> Are you still sure there aren't many diving accidents?
>
>
> IMHO you have quite a broad definition for accident. By your definition
> a coral ear is a diving accident.
>
> By that definition I'm a walking disaster even above ground, since I
> have multiple accidents each day (my kids bump into me while playing, I
> hit my toe into a chair leg, a soap slipped from my hand in the shower...)


Well, , even if you narrow your focus, there is a vast
number of accidents which ecape the news just because of of
language barriers, or lack of interest.

For instance those 4 Lebanese, diving once in the gulf of
Aquaba to 30m, eventually deciding to ascend when their air
was consumed.
2 died instantly, 2 during treatment. When the physician at
the SSH hyperbaric center hadn't told me, I would not know.
WW statistic entry :none.

Or think of a world where they communicate by written
paintings and ink spots. These worship a tradition of losing
their faces ( mind the "a"!) and thus avoid confessing
mishaps in public.

So a large number of falling into self-owned swords may in
reality have to attributed to diving accidents.

Matthias

Esa Laitinen wrote:

> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>> Are you still sure there aren't many diving accidents?
>
>
> IMHO you have quite a broad definition for accident. By your definition
> a coral ear is a diving accident.
>
> By that definition I'm a walking disaster even above ground, since I
> have multiple accidents each day (my kids bump into me while playing, I
> hit my toe into a chair leg, a soap slipped from my hand in the shower...)


Well, , even if you narrow your focus, there is a vast
number of accidents which ecape the news just because of of
language barriers, or lack of interest.

For instance those 4 Lebanese, diving once in the gulf of
Aquaba to 30m, eventually deciding to ascend when their air
was consumed.
2 died instantly, 2 during treatment. When the physician at
the SSH hyperbaric center hadn't told me, I would not know.
WW statistic entry :none.

Or think of a world where they communicate by written
paintings and ink spots. These worship a tradition of losing
their faces ( mind the "a"!) and thus avoid confessing
mishaps in public.

So a large number of falling into self-owned swords may in
reality have to attributed to diving accidents.

Matthias

Dan Bracuk wrote:

> Matthias Voss <spammat.voss@gmx.de> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :> Do you have a reason to believe that a significant number of diving
> :> accidents are taking place and being hidden???
> :
> :Absolutely.
>
> And exactly why do you think that?

As I posted in another response.
And because I see people diving.
Not to assess them, but to know whom to avoid.

Assimilating an approach to accident prevention from civil
engineering/ traffic accident research (which I had done
several years ago):

You observe near accident events, try to classify the
causes, and relate them statistically to accidents really
happening.
Works.

Matthias

Dan Bracuk wrote:

> Matthias Voss <spammat.voss@gmx.de> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :> Do you have a reason to believe that a significant number of diving
> :> accidents are taking place and being hidden???
> :
> :Absolutely.
>
> And exactly why do you think that?

As I posted in another response.
And because I see people diving.
Not to assess them, but to know whom to avoid.

Assimilating an approach to accident prevention from civil
engineering/ traffic accident research (which I had done
several years ago):

You observe near accident events, try to classify the
causes, and relate them statistically to accidents really
happening.
Works.

Matthias

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :All we can tell, as frequent recreational divers, is how many people we see
> :on the boats that we recognize as incompetent. The number is way too high.
>
> I dive for fun, not to assess the other people on the boat.


Same here, but some of it is so obvious that it is hard not to notice,
even when we're not trying to look for it...its hard not to have a
general peripheral awareness of your environment.


-hh

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :All we can tell, as frequent recreational divers, is how many people we see
> :on the boats that we recognize as incompetent. The number is way too high.
>
> I dive for fun, not to assess the other people on the boat.


Same here, but some of it is so obvious that it is hard not to notice,
even when we're not trying to look for it...its hard not to have a
general peripheral awareness of your environment.


-hh

"Esa Laitinen" wrote

> IMHO you have quite a broad definition for accident. By your definition a
> coral ear is a diving accident.

I may be a Democrat, but that doesn't mean I get to redefine words in the
English language. A blow job is sex and an accident is an accident. Some
are more serious than others. The point is, no matter where you draw the
line, there are a lot more than are recorded.

> By that definition I'm a walking disaster even above ground, since I have
> multiple accidents each day (my kids bump into me while playing, I hit my
> toe into a chair leg, a soap slipped from my hand in the shower...)

Perhaps you are. Lucky for you, your accidents don't happen in an
environment where you can't breathe normally. Even luckier for you, dropped
soap doesn't explode. Dropped tanks just might.

Lee

"Esa Laitinen" wrote

> IMHO you have quite a broad definition for accident. By your definition a
> coral ear is a diving accident.

I may be a Democrat, but that doesn't mean I get to redefine words in the
English language. A blow job is sex and an accident is an accident. Some
are more serious than others. The point is, no matter where you draw the
line, there are a lot more than are recorded.

> By that definition I'm a walking disaster even above ground, since I have
> multiple accidents each day (my kids bump into me while playing, I hit my
> toe into a chair leg, a soap slipped from my hand in the shower...)

Perhaps you are. Lucky for you, your accidents don't happen in an
environment where you can't breathe normally. Even luckier for you, dropped
soap doesn't explode. Dropped tanks just might.

Lee