PADI Training vs.. others

Lee Bell wrote:

> "Matthias Voss" <spammat.voss@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:dup4o2$avs$01$1@news.t-online.com...
>
>>Lee Bell wrote:
>>
>>>"Matthias Voss" wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Assimilating an approach to accident prevention from civil engineering/
>>>>traffic accident research (which I had done several years ago):
>>>
>>>
>>>>You observe near accident events, try to classify the causes, and relate
>>>>them statistically to accidents really happening. Works.
>>>
>>>
>>>Sure does, but not if you start with the assumption that, because there's
>>>no accident report, there is no danger.
>>
>>That is the difference between a denial culture and an open to discussion
>>one.
>
>
> Which do you perceive the dive industry to be?

Perceive?
They do their best to prove it!
With the exemption of replacing pertinax and rubber
membranes with silicone ones, technical progress did not do
much to improve diving safety.
Still, claiming to do so, to be able to do so, is a
marketing necessity.

Matthias

Lee Bell wrote:

> "Matthias Voss" <spammat.voss@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:dup4o2$avs$01$1@news.t-online.com...
>
>>Lee Bell wrote:
>>
>>>"Matthias Voss" wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Assimilating an approach to accident prevention from civil engineering/
>>>>traffic accident research (which I had done several years ago):
>>>
>>>
>>>>You observe near accident events, try to classify the causes, and relate
>>>>them statistically to accidents really happening. Works.
>>>
>>>
>>>Sure does, but not if you start with the assumption that, because there's
>>>no accident report, there is no danger.
>>
>>That is the difference between a denial culture and an open to discussion
>>one.
>
>
> Which do you perceive the dive industry to be?

Perceive?
They do their best to prove it!
With the exemption of replacing pertinax and rubber
membranes with silicone ones, technical progress did not do
much to improve diving safety.
Still, claiming to do so, to be able to do so, is a
marketing necessity.

Matthias

Lee Bell wrote:

>
>>What part of PADI training do you consider unsafe?
>
>
> The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.

No C-card certifies competence. It just certifies that the
cardholder took the course.

A C-card is no different than a driver's license or a degree in
statistics - the holder satisfied the basic requirements of the
issuer but may have acquired, in the process, very few skills in
the legally conferred certificate's arena or any other.

PADI, and the rest, introduce a person to diving in an organized
and controlled environment, some of which is meant to rub off on
the student.

Some divers achieve a level of competence without ever taking
the course. Some divers achieve a level of competence as a
result of the inspiration and direction provided by the course.

But there ain't no C-Card that is gonna certify competence, not
PADI, not NAUI, not YMCA, not GUE, not BSAC, not PDIC, none of them.

Lee Bell wrote:

>
>>What part of PADI training do you consider unsafe?
>
>
> The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.

No C-card certifies competence. It just certifies that the
cardholder took the course.

A C-card is no different than a driver's license or a degree in
statistics - the holder satisfied the basic requirements of the
issuer but may have acquired, in the process, very few skills in
the legally conferred certificate's arena or any other.

PADI, and the rest, introduce a person to diving in an organized
and controlled environment, some of which is meant to rub off on
the student.

Some divers achieve a level of competence without ever taking
the course. Some divers achieve a level of competence as a
result of the inspiration and direction provided by the course.

But there ain't no C-Card that is gonna certify competence, not
PADI, not NAUI, not YMCA, not GUE, not BSAC, not PDIC, none of them.

Lee Bell wrote:
> The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.

Lee - I am curious as to how do you define "competence" in an OW water
student, as I suspect this may be a root cause of difference.

To me, competence in a recently-certified OW diver is:

- ability to maintain depth with reasonable ease (ie, no yo yo diving;
no "be really heavy and kick like mad to stay off the bottom", no
over-reliance on the inflator hose). Occasional use of hands and
less-than-perfect (but still reasonably decent) static buoyancy - not a
problem. That gets better with more time in the water, and as long as
the diver can do a dive and a safety stop without yo-yoing, I am ok.
- ability to demonstrate a basic level of awareness in the water: ie,
staying reasonably close to their buddy, watching their air/depth/time
limits
- ability to react comfortably to things like losing the mask/getting
water in the nose (*especially* this one), having a cramp, running low
on air, etc. without panicking and bolting
- knowledge of basic surface skills like getting kitted up in the
water, awareness of the current/boat

Failure to have DIR-standard buoyancy and trim doesnt equate to
incompetence in my books - atleast not for OW students.

Lee Bell wrote:
> The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.

Lee - I am curious as to how do you define "competence" in an OW water
student, as I suspect this may be a root cause of difference.

To me, competence in a recently-certified OW diver is:

- ability to maintain depth with reasonable ease (ie, no yo yo diving;
no "be really heavy and kick like mad to stay off the bottom", no
over-reliance on the inflator hose). Occasional use of hands and
less-than-perfect (but still reasonably decent) static buoyancy - not a
problem. That gets better with more time in the water, and as long as
the diver can do a dive and a safety stop without yo-yoing, I am ok.
- ability to demonstrate a basic level of awareness in the water: ie,
staying reasonably close to their buddy, watching their air/depth/time
limits
- ability to react comfortably to things like losing the mask/getting
water in the nose (*especially* this one), having a cramp, running low
on air, etc. without panicking and bolting
- knowledge of basic surface skills like getting kitted up in the
water, awareness of the current/boat

Failure to have DIR-standard buoyancy and trim doesnt equate to
incompetence in my books - atleast not for OW students.

mike gray wrote:

> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>
>>> What part of PADI training do you consider unsafe?
>>
>>
>>
>> The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.
>
>
> No C-card certifies competence. It just certifies that the cardholder
> took the course.

I know of basic (OW equivalent)certified beginners who were
told they could dive on their own, because "they were
experienced", or asked wether they could take care of beginners.

Matthias

mike gray wrote:

> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>
>>> What part of PADI training do you consider unsafe?
>>
>>
>>
>> The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.
>
>
> No C-card certifies competence. It just certifies that the cardholder
> took the course.

I know of basic (OW equivalent)certified beginners who were
told they could dive on their own, because "they were
experienced", or asked wether they could take care of beginners.

Matthias

VK wrote:

> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.
>
>
> Lee - I am curious as to how do you define "competence" in an OW water
> student, as I suspect this may be a root cause of difference.
>
> To me, competence in a recently-certified OW diver is:
>
> - ability to maintain depth with reasonable ease (ie, no yo yo diving;
> no "be really heavy and kick like mad to stay off the bottom", no
> over-reliance on the inflator hose). Occasional use of hands and
> less-than-perfect (but still reasonably decent) static buoyancy - not a
> problem. That gets better with more time in the water, and as long as
> the diver can do a dive and a safety stop without yo-yoing, I am ok.
> - ability to demonstrate a basic level of awareness in the water: ie,
> staying reasonably close to their buddy, watching their air/depth/time
> limits
> - ability to react comfortably to things like losing the mask/getting
> water in the nose (*especially* this one), having a cramp, running low
> on air, etc. without panicking and bolting
> - knowledge of basic surface skills like getting kitted up in the
> water, awareness of the current/boat

I have to add:
- skills in air sharing ( buddy breathing)
-being able to rescue someone from below surface to the
surface, without getting drowned or killing the rescuee by
skyrocketing him with the inflator
-being able to support someone
-being able to tow someone
-being able to practice the 10 basic signs
-being able to breathhold 45 seconds
-being able to dive 25m w/o scuba
being able to swim for an extended period (20' fully
equipped, 40' mask/fins/snorkel in a variety of positons
-being able to use decompression tables
-mastering basic first aid techniques and resuscitation
being able to do a controlled ascent with a controlled
safety stop.

Matthias

VK wrote:

> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>The part that issues a card certifying competence to someone who is not.
>
>
> Lee - I am curious as to how do you define "competence" in an OW water
> student, as I suspect this may be a root cause of difference.
>
> To me, competence in a recently-certified OW diver is:
>
> - ability to maintain depth with reasonable ease (ie, no yo yo diving;
> no "be really heavy and kick like mad to stay off the bottom", no
> over-reliance on the inflator hose). Occasional use of hands and
> less-than-perfect (but still reasonably decent) static buoyancy - not a
> problem. That gets better with more time in the water, and as long as
> the diver can do a dive and a safety stop without yo-yoing, I am ok.
> - ability to demonstrate a basic level of awareness in the water: ie,
> staying reasonably close to their buddy, watching their air/depth/time
> limits
> - ability to react comfortably to things like losing the mask/getting
> water in the nose (*especially* this one), having a cramp, running low
> on air, etc. without panicking and bolting
> - knowledge of basic surface skills like getting kitted up in the
> water, awareness of the current/boat

I have to add:
- skills in air sharing ( buddy breathing)
-being able to rescue someone from below surface to the
surface, without getting drowned or killing the rescuee by
skyrocketing him with the inflator
-being able to support someone
-being able to tow someone
-being able to practice the 10 basic signs
-being able to breathhold 45 seconds
-being able to dive 25m w/o scuba
being able to swim for an extended period (20' fully
equipped, 40' mask/fins/snorkel in a variety of positons
-being able to use decompression tables
-mastering basic first aid techniques and resuscitation
being able to do a controlled ascent with a controlled
safety stop.

Matthias