PADI Training vs.. others

sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>
>
> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>
> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy
>

There is some very basic "book" knowledge important to entry
level courses, but not much. Mostly, it's skill development.

As you get further into diving, you may find an interest in
algorithm development, history, archeology, diving physics and
physiology, gas blending, equipment design, cave mapping or any
of the other hundreds of subjects we love to argue about here
(or used to, anyway) and which require the kind of knowledge
that can be assessed with a written exam.

Meanwhile, work on developing yer in-water skills - that's how
other, experienced divers will rank you as a good or bad diver.

Leave the essays to those that don't dive much.

m

sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>
>
> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>
> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy
>

There is some very basic "book" knowledge important to entry
level courses, but not much. Mostly, it's skill development.

As you get further into diving, you may find an interest in
algorithm development, history, archeology, diving physics and
physiology, gas blending, equipment design, cave mapping or any
of the other hundreds of subjects we love to argue about here
(or used to, anyway) and which require the kind of knowledge
that can be assessed with a written exam.

Meanwhile, work on developing yer in-water skills - that's how
other, experienced divers will rank you as a good or bad diver.

Leave the essays to those that don't dive much.

m

On 2006-03-07 14:35:55 +1300, <sytech@yahoo.com> said:

>
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>
>
> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>
> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy

I would have to say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with
the instructor who would be training you rather than going by the
reputation of the training agency as a whole.

PADI do have a reputation for wanting everyone who takes a course to
pass, but the quality of a course is more dependant on the instructor
than anything else. I am a PADI instructor, but I have certs from a
variety of agencies and mainly keep the PADI rating as it is useful for
work (I am a marine biologist and I occasionally train scientific
divers, and the PADI courses are useful for getting the basic certs up
to the point that non-PADI scientific training can begin).

I have met a lot of very good PADI instructors as well as some quite
dodgy ones, but the same applies to all of the other major agencies
(SSI, BSAC, SAA etc.). You sound like you should be able to get a feel
for how an instructor will be, so go from there. You might find that a
course from a more technical agency is more what you are after as the
academic portions of those courses will be more in depth than a PADI
course...

Just some thoughts...

Dan L.

On 2006-03-07 14:35:55 +1300, <sytech@yahoo.com> said:

>
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>
>
> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>
> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy

I would have to say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with
the instructor who would be training you rather than going by the
reputation of the training agency as a whole.

PADI do have a reputation for wanting everyone who takes a course to
pass, but the quality of a course is more dependant on the instructor
than anything else. I am a PADI instructor, but I have certs from a
variety of agencies and mainly keep the PADI rating as it is useful for
work (I am a marine biologist and I occasionally train scientific
divers, and the PADI courses are useful for getting the basic certs up
to the point that non-PADI scientific training can begin).

I have met a lot of very good PADI instructors as well as some quite
dodgy ones, but the same applies to all of the other major agencies
(SSI, BSAC, SAA etc.). You sound like you should be able to get a feel
for how an instructor will be, so go from there. You might find that a
course from a more technical agency is more what you are after as the
academic portions of those courses will be more in depth than a PADI
course...

Just some thoughts...

Dan L.

Dan L wrote:
> On 2006-03-07 14:35:55 +1300, <sytech@yahoo.com> said:
>
>>
>> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
>> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
>> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
>> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
>> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
>> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>> Something like this:
>>
>> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>>
>> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>>
>>
>> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
>> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
>> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
>> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
>> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
>> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
>> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>>
>> Any comments will be appreciated.
>>
>> Sy
>
>
> I would have to say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with the
> instructor who would be training you rather than going by the reputation
> of the training agency as a whole.
>
> PADI do have a reputation for wanting everyone who takes a course to
> pass, but the quality of a course is more dependant on the instructor
> than anything else. I am a PADI instructor, but I have certs from a
> variety of agencies and mainly keep the PADI rating as it is useful for
> work (I am a marine biologist and I occasionally train scientific
> divers, and the PADI courses are useful for getting the basic certs up
> to the point that non-PADI scientific training can begin).
>
> I have met a lot of very good PADI instructors as well as some quite
> dodgy ones, but the same applies to all of the other major agencies
> (SSI, BSAC, SAA etc.). You sound like you should be able to get a feel
> for how an instructor will be, so go from there. You might find that a
> course from a more technical agency is more what you are after as the
> academic portions of those courses will be more in depth than a PADI
> course...
>
> Just some thoughts...
>
> Dan L.
>
The whole point of a training certification is to provide a framework
under which *new* divers can confidently learn to be safe. If the
instructor certification is insufficient assurance of basic competance
in this regard, then the certificate is worse than useless, it is
fraudulent.

By definition, a new diver is incapable of properly assesing an
individual instructor.

Dan L wrote:
> On 2006-03-07 14:35:55 +1300, <sytech@yahoo.com> said:
>
>>
>> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
>> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
>> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
>> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
>> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
>> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>> Something like this:
>>
>> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>>
>> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>>
>>
>> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
>> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
>> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
>> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
>> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
>> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
>> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>>
>> Any comments will be appreciated.
>>
>> Sy
>
>
> I would have to say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with the
> instructor who would be training you rather than going by the reputation
> of the training agency as a whole.
>
> PADI do have a reputation for wanting everyone who takes a course to
> pass, but the quality of a course is more dependant on the instructor
> than anything else. I am a PADI instructor, but I have certs from a
> variety of agencies and mainly keep the PADI rating as it is useful for
> work (I am a marine biologist and I occasionally train scientific
> divers, and the PADI courses are useful for getting the basic certs up
> to the point that non-PADI scientific training can begin).
>
> I have met a lot of very good PADI instructors as well as some quite
> dodgy ones, but the same applies to all of the other major agencies
> (SSI, BSAC, SAA etc.). You sound like you should be able to get a feel
> for how an instructor will be, so go from there. You might find that a
> course from a more technical agency is more what you are after as the
> academic portions of those courses will be more in depth than a PADI
> course...
>
> Just some thoughts...
>
> Dan L.
>
The whole point of a training certification is to provide a framework
under which *new* divers can confidently learn to be safe. If the
instructor certification is insufficient assurance of basic competance
in this regard, then the certificate is worse than useless, it is
fraudulent.

By definition, a new diver is incapable of properly assesing an
individual instructor.

sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.

> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course.

It's not limited to PADI. I did not even START learning about diving
until I have received my Master Diver cert from PADI (1990) and
started to learn from dive masters and others who DIVE.

I immediately got into a flamewar with THREE dive instructors
in rec.scuba: Dave Waller, who taught his students to DUMP
their BCD empty before kicking themself to ascend to surface.
and Nick SImicich who had NO IDEA about proper weighting
and neutral buoyancy; and a third instructor Dave, who
argued with me about BUOYANCY control -- and soon earned
themselves the name of "Truimphrate of Twits". Yup, these
were all INSTRUCTORS, NAUI, PADI, SSI, and some handicap
association (perhaps for mentally handicapped <G>).

GOOD diving practice is a gradual learning process. No amount
of certification will be a substitute. Mike Gray has some wise
word to say to you on that.


Take Lee Bell -- who bragged about his diving experience and
diving knowledge, yet don't know the first thing about DIVE
PHYSICS or DIVE PHYSIOLOGY to have argued for years
that he could maintain NEUTRAL buoyancy throughout an
entire dive by "shifting his breathing pattern alone" -- and used
the fallacious argument that he used to dive WITHOUT a
BCD -- not realizing he was NEVER neutrally buoyant
during an entire dive -- both a couple of lbs to heavy (at
the beginning) AND a couple of lbs too light (at the end)
to compensate by constant MOTION rather than being
able to stay motionless and remain NEUTRAL.

Lee is so obtuse about these basic PRINCIPLES of Gas
Laws and physiology that he earned such ridicule from
those in the know several years ago, and he is STILL
arguing in rec.scuba about his ability to be neutral by
changing his breathing pattern alone -- completely
obvlious to the fact that there is a 5-6 lb DIFFERENTIAL
in the air inside a talk (between full and empty), so that
it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to compensate for that
amount of change through breathing alone.

That kind of ignorance in DIVING skill AND theory, earned
Lee Bell the coveted acolades from extremely knowledgeable
instructors, and instructor trainers:

Discussant H

Lee,
You compensate for 6 or so lbs in buoyancy change by shifting your
breathing pattern???? That would require constant, close to 3 liters
exhale at the end of your dive ) What is the tidal volume of your
lungs - 15 liters?))

Discussant D.

Lee once again went for a Nobel Prize in physics by attempting to
prove a range of immutable laws wrong

Discussant E.

Rather than bastardizing the gas laws, and continuing your
intellectual strip-tease show, may I suggest that you adhere
instead to Denis Healey's First Law of Holes: "When you find
yourself in one, stop digging!"

> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy

Don't blame it just on PADI. There are as many excellent PADI
instructors as there are excellent instructors in other training
agencies.

Newsgroups is a very dangerous place to learn about DIVING
skills, especially rec.scuba. You have too many bullshitters
like Lee Bell around who prides in NOT LISTENING but
keep ARGUING about his errors. He has attracted a gang
of equally ignorant creatures to post as a GANG in
discrupting SCUBA discussions.

Lee's latest confession (a few days ago):

Lee> I've never been much of a spectator. If I can't do
Lee> it myself, I'm not particularly interested in watching,
Lee> or hearing, about others that can.

which brought my observation:

RF> That pretty much is a TRUE CONFESSION of WHY Lee Bell is so
RF> ignorant about so many scuba facts, priniciples, and physical
RF> and scientific Laws!


Lee Bell and is stooges (Magilla, Bob Crownfield, Alan Street) who
NEVER have anything to post in rec.scuba.locations have been
flaming me in that group for weeks, on the buoyancy issue and
other noise issues Lee Bell drummed up.

> Any comments will be appreciated

Beware of anything DIVING related that come out of the mouth of
Lee Bell. As for his stooges, they never talk about scuba --
as far as I could tell. If you like to bull shit, Lee (aka DING
DONG)
is your man!

-- Bob. BTW, I don't read rec.scuba anymore, only
rec.scuba.locations.

sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.

> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course.

It's not limited to PADI. I did not even START learning about diving
until I have received my Master Diver cert from PADI (1990) and
started to learn from dive masters and others who DIVE.

I immediately got into a flamewar with THREE dive instructors
in rec.scuba: Dave Waller, who taught his students to DUMP
their BCD empty before kicking themself to ascend to surface.
and Nick SImicich who had NO IDEA about proper weighting
and neutral buoyancy; and a third instructor Dave, who
argued with me about BUOYANCY control -- and soon earned
themselves the name of "Truimphrate of Twits". Yup, these
were all INSTRUCTORS, NAUI, PADI, SSI, and some handicap
association (perhaps for mentally handicapped <G>).

GOOD diving practice is a gradual learning process. No amount
of certification will be a substitute. Mike Gray has some wise
word to say to you on that.


Take Lee Bell -- who bragged about his diving experience and
diving knowledge, yet don't know the first thing about DIVE
PHYSICS or DIVE PHYSIOLOGY to have argued for years
that he could maintain NEUTRAL buoyancy throughout an
entire dive by "shifting his breathing pattern alone" -- and used
the fallacious argument that he used to dive WITHOUT a
BCD -- not realizing he was NEVER neutrally buoyant
during an entire dive -- both a couple of lbs to heavy (at
the beginning) AND a couple of lbs too light (at the end)
to compensate by constant MOTION rather than being
able to stay motionless and remain NEUTRAL.

Lee is so obtuse about these basic PRINCIPLES of Gas
Laws and physiology that he earned such ridicule from
those in the know several years ago, and he is STILL
arguing in rec.scuba about his ability to be neutral by
changing his breathing pattern alone -- completely
obvlious to the fact that there is a 5-6 lb DIFFERENTIAL
in the air inside a talk (between full and empty), so that
it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to compensate for that
amount of change through breathing alone.

That kind of ignorance in DIVING skill AND theory, earned
Lee Bell the coveted acolades from extremely knowledgeable
instructors, and instructor trainers:

Discussant H

Lee,
You compensate for 6 or so lbs in buoyancy change by shifting your
breathing pattern???? That would require constant, close to 3 liters
exhale at the end of your dive ) What is the tidal volume of your
lungs - 15 liters?))

Discussant D.

Lee once again went for a Nobel Prize in physics by attempting to
prove a range of immutable laws wrong

Discussant E.

Rather than bastardizing the gas laws, and continuing your
intellectual strip-tease show, may I suggest that you adhere
instead to Denis Healey's First Law of Holes: "When you find
yourself in one, stop digging!"

> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy

Don't blame it just on PADI. There are as many excellent PADI
instructors as there are excellent instructors in other training
agencies.

Newsgroups is a very dangerous place to learn about DIVING
skills, especially rec.scuba. You have too many bullshitters
like Lee Bell around who prides in NOT LISTENING but
keep ARGUING about his errors. He has attracted a gang
of equally ignorant creatures to post as a GANG in
discrupting SCUBA discussions.

Lee's latest confession (a few days ago):

Lee> I've never been much of a spectator. If I can't do
Lee> it myself, I'm not particularly interested in watching,
Lee> or hearing, about others that can.

which brought my observation:

RF> That pretty much is a TRUE CONFESSION of WHY Lee Bell is so
RF> ignorant about so many scuba facts, priniciples, and physical
RF> and scientific Laws!


Lee Bell and is stooges (Magilla, Bob Crownfield, Alan Street) who
NEVER have anything to post in rec.scuba.locations have been
flaming me in that group for weeks, on the buoyancy issue and
other noise issues Lee Bell drummed up.

> Any comments will be appreciated

Beware of anything DIVING related that come out of the mouth of
Lee Bell. As for his stooges, they never talk about scuba --
as far as I could tell. If you like to bull shit, Lee (aka DING
DONG)
is your man!

-- Bob. BTW, I don't read rec.scuba anymore, only
rec.scuba.locations.

In article <060320062135551447%sytech@yahoo.com>, sytech@yahoo.com ()
wrote:

> *From:* <sytech@yahoo.com>
> *Date:* Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:35:55 -0400
>
>
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.

> Any comments will be appreciated.

I did my training with PADI in 1998, at the time i did not know anything
about training agencies or PADI or anything related to diving.......i
simply answered a advertisement.....as it happened, the instructor was a
PADI instructor.

Irespective of what the book says, i still had to perform the required
skills.........and prove that i could do them ok.

At the time i thought i was being taught to dive, i now know that not to
be the case, perhaps the book should make this absolutely clear.
You are only taught how to perform certain tasks, and what you should be
aware of.......

Since i and my wife gained our OW & imidiatly aftrewards our AOW we have
gained no further certification. Our diving knowledge and experience has
been gained from time in the water.....and talking (and sometimes arguing)
with the good folk of this media..........we have dived all over the world
which over time has taught us what you can never get from any book.

Just make the realisation part of your learning curve........allways
question........

www.seatreker.com
Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK

In article <060320062135551447%sytech@yahoo.com>, sytech@yahoo.com ()
wrote:

> *From:* <sytech@yahoo.com>
> *Date:* Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:35:55 -0400
>
>
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.

> Any comments will be appreciated.

I did my training with PADI in 1998, at the time i did not know anything
about training agencies or PADI or anything related to diving.......i
simply answered a advertisement.....as it happened, the instructor was a
PADI instructor.

Irespective of what the book says, i still had to perform the required
skills.........and prove that i could do them ok.

At the time i thought i was being taught to dive, i now know that not to
be the case, perhaps the book should make this absolutely clear.
You are only taught how to perform certain tasks, and what you should be
aware of.......

Since i and my wife gained our OW & imidiatly aftrewards our AOW we have
gained no further certification. Our diving knowledge and experience has
been gained from time in the water.....and talking (and sometimes arguing)
with the good folk of this media..........we have dived all over the world
which over time has taught us what you can never get from any book.

Just make the realisation part of your learning curve........allways
question........

www.seatreker.com
Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK